DHEA and Chinese herbs
Anyone have any good research or clinical experience with DHEA and Chinese herbs?
I have a 43 year old woman who has responded poorly to IVF and has now been recommended to try DHEA for the two months leading up to her next IVF attempt. This is not a common practice here in Canada and I would love to hear from others who have some wisdom to share.
I have taken Brandon Horn's course and so know about Cordycepts and Quercetin, and genistein to help counteract side effects. I would like to know if there was any support for combining other Chinese herbal remedies with DHEA.
Thank you kindly :-)
Trevor
www.skin.health-info.org
www.acubalance.ca
I would NEVER recommend using a steroid, including DHEA, until there is appropriate lab testing (I use Diagnos-tech in WA) to determine if there is a need for it and if there is the sublingual at 5mg/day should be a starting dosage and keep monitoring it. Herbs to address this would include rehmannia, licorice, astragulus and other kidney tonic herbs depending on her symptoms.
claudia wolfe, san jose ca
Hi Trevor,
I recall Brandon suggesting testing for DHEA deficiency like Claudia suggested. He also mentioned in his seminar on Low Ovarian Reserve about taking some supplements to help reduce some of DHEA negative side effects. I am currently editing it for on line viewing at Pro D but I may not get to this section until late January.
From memory it was Quecertin and Cordyceps. You can also check our notes in clinic tomorrow to see dosage. But like Claudia stated... only if really warranted (DHEA insufficiency). Plus I believe I heard Brandon say that for now follow the study protocol of 25g 3 times per day for 3 months, no more and no longer.
You do not have to worry bout these details however, as it is a regulated substance in Canada and only an MD can prescribe it. But always good info to know to help coach our patients and give them info to take to their other health care providers for deeper explanation and recommendations.
Lorne
www.acubalance.ca
www.prodseminars.com
Hi Lorne,
The dosage you heard recommended (25mg/TID) is in my opinion dangerously excessive. My functional endocrinology teachers have stated that low dosing can be very effective and the most I've heard Dr. Janet Lang suggest is 10mg in the a.m. Period.
Since I do so much salvia testing for such hormones, I've been able to do before and after tests and have found this to be true. to give too much creates a possible negative feedback loop.
The vast majority of fertility cases I see (about 95% of me practice) have very low cortisol levels as well as very low DHEA. I use Standard Process's whole food formulas that address both the upstream endocrine glands (hypothalmus and pituitary) as well as downstream endocrine glands. These formulas are the greatest adjunct to traditional herbal formulas I've ever clinically experienced because of the PMG's and cytosols that promotes healthy cell regeneration and neurotransmitter fx. If this is an approach you want to include for DHEA and pregnelone precursor support rather than bypassing the body's function in making these steroids, email me and I'll send the protocol to you.
Of course when there is low DHEA and cortisol fx I also address the adrenals as well with herbs and again, Standard Process: Drenamin and Cataplex B.
Standard Process is the oldest whole food nutritional company in the world and what Dr. Royal Lee did in formulating these theaputic dose formulas is comprable to what the Chinese did for herbs in the last 1000 years, i.e. all formulas were derived at via Evidence Based clinical observations by docs all over the country giving him feedback.
Once I started using this line, my success rate soared. Well worth investing the time to study how to use these formulas. And believe me, it's like learning about herbs - you have to study A LOT :-)
In summary, I find it safer and much more effective and much less likely to cause imbalance of the steroid hormones by using Standard Process rather than DHEA or Pregnelone directly.
Warm Regards,
Claudia Wolfe, L.Ac.
San Jose, CA
Hi Lorne, Thanks for mentioning the online course, if I remember correctly it will be up in January. It will have a lot of new information on reversing poor ovarian quality. For the most part, you don't generally need DHEA or other hormones to do this. However, since Trevor's patient in this case was put on DHEA by their RE, he should definitely check the DHEAS levels ASAP and monitor them at least monthly. He also should monitor her testosterone, DHT, estradiol, androstenedione, etc. as well as the major metabolites. This is to see not only how the body is dealing with the DHEA, but to make sure the body isn't producing higher amounts of carcinogenic metabolites. As you know the course has more details on how to do this and what you are looking for ... but that's the general idea. If you just give quercetin or cordyceps or whatever you could cause problems rather than help, you have to look at their individual hormone profile to make that decision. Now if your patient starts to develop hirsutism, or they already have signs of hyperandrogenism then by all means give them quercetin, cordyceps, etc.
By the way Lorne, 25g DHEA tid? you canadians are hard core! Canadian women are going to start looking like grizzly bears at that dose ... in the States we're a little more conservative ... we use 25mg tid. ;-)
Brandon Horn
www.herbalroom.com
PS: I just read the last post ... While I respect a lot of the research that went into the standard process formulas, they don't use organically raised animals because they said there aren't enough of them for their products. There are other glandulars that are organic if you decide to go that way. We find herbal medicine, acupuncture and nutrition to be extremely effective in restoring ovarian function. But you have to know what you're looking for. There are risks one takes by using non-organic glandulars that may not be necessary (e.g., BSE - which can be found in many other species as well). BSE doesn't show up for many years, so its not like you would know necessarily any time soon and it would be very hard to trace, so Standard process will be able to claim they have had no cases of it, but in reality you can't know.
Thanks for catching that dosage Brandon. Even though we like to brew stronger beer here in Canada compared to the states I do not think that also goes for our supplements an drugs.
I am curious about what others think about my comments below.
I think this is very interesting. I like to know about these options so I can be a resource and coach to my patients. But my personal style is becoming more and more just Chinese medicine. Having the opportunity through Pro D to study with the likes of Jane Lyttleton, Sharon Weizenbaum, Heather Bruce, Brandon Horn, Dr Huang Huang and soon Dr Dao Shing Ni, I realize there is an incredible wealth of information in my own medicine that i will never be able to get through in this life time. So I am dedicating my time and energy to learn Chinese medicine to its fullest. The saying the more I know the more I realize what I do not know really applies
I have to say I am learning lots of useful information from pre- reviewing Brandon's online ovarian reserve seminar. I like how you share all the the western science that supports why Chinese medicine theoretically can help women with low ovarian reserve and egg quality. Good job.
Lorne
www.acubalance.ca
www.prodseminars.com
Thank you everyone for the informative posts. The DHEA my patient is on is prescribed from her RE, so hopefully they will follow up with appropriate tests for her, if not then I will suggest them.
She does already have signs of some excess androgenism- sl extra facial hair, acne, a bit of a buff looking appearance (she is also a competitive athlete), so the fear of the DHEA side effects is a real one for this woman. She was inquiring into what was known about chinese herbal medicine being used to reduce these side effects. I was already treating her with herbs to balance the patterns manifesting before DHEA, I am just unclear as to the safety of combing the two. Based on peoples responses, I am thinking that it is probably best to avoid giving her anything else except for acupuncture and maybe the supplements mentioned above. I will keep it simple :-)
All the best,
Trevor
www.skin.health-info.org
www.acubalance.ca
Joined: 2007-01-30